Thoughts on Anton Oparin's claim about Paul Gilbert? Any truth to it?

[Drew]

@Jakeh15

But I do find it interesting (Assuming Anton wasn’t joking of course, which I can’t be sure of) how confident Anton seems that Gilbert couldn’t have arrived at elements of his technique such as his “Professional use of RoME in cyclical movements” through intuition alone.

I mean, I have no idea if he’s joking or not, and I don’t know much of anything aout Anton.

But if “professional use of RoME in cyclical movements” is a technique Anton employed, then presumably at some point along the way Anton must have worked it out, likely by intuition himself, and if one person could work out a highly optimized solution by intuition, then it kind of stands to reason that another person could, as well.

The number of guitarists who actually understand how their picking hand functions is vanishingly small - the majority of highly accomplished alternate pickers developed their technique through intuition.

[carranoj25]

What is RoME again? Range of Motion?

[Tom_Gilroy]

Recuperation of Mechanical Energy.

[Jakeh15]

@Drew

Anton must have worked it out, likely by intuition himself

Well, Anton’s selling point for his teaching material seems to be his claim to have formed his technique under the guidance of his father and his friends who are highly knowledgeable in physiology and biomechanics, so presumably he didn’t work these things out by intuition alone as Gilbert most likely did. It does make sense given his unbelievable level of technique at a very young age so I tend to believe there is merit to this claim.

[Drew]

@Jakeh15

It does make sense given his unbelievable level of technique at a very young age so I tend to believe there is merit to this claim.

That’s pretty typical at this level, though. Gilbert is an ironic choice here since he basically floored the entirity of GIT when he showed up, Yngwie was essentially fully formed by the time his earliest recordings from his teens surfaced, Jason Becker was jaw-dropping in some of the early footage in “Not Dead Yet,” etc.

Neither here nor there, though. I guess my point is, if it’s a joke, it’s either one in poor taste, or it’s one where there’s something getting lost in the language barrier.

[Interestedoz]

I have huge repect for Anton’s playing and ability and so I listen to what he says carefully.

Some of my views based on this video:

• not sure I agree with all of his analysis on all the “+” and “-” scores for the different players. I won’t name where I think he went wrong as I don’t like to criticize other players (who are generally better than I am! lol) - but there are some plusses that should be minuses and vice versa in my view
• a great thread here on PG for those who haven’t seen it discussing how he views the infamous PG lick retrospectively

Haha. Paul Gilbert admits that the "Paul Gilbert lick" is too hard for beginners

of course, this is a 7 year old vid now…that I am just seeing I got Intense Rock around 1990ish. Felt like a loser when I couldnt really get the “Paul Gilbert lick” up to any speed. Recently saw where Claus Levin said he sort of had the same issue when he first tried it and that he only started getting better results when he started on single string licks Well surprise surprise, here is Paul admitting that the PG lick is terrible for beginners since it is actually a way advanced lick. Good stu…

[Fossegrim]

1: To the Op’s question regarding Gilbert. It’s highly unlikely. You have to look at this rationally. Gilbert grew up in a small farming community in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania. There was likely very little development in that area in the 70’s, let alone anyone to consult regarding advanced sports medicine or body physics in general, especially anything that would translate to guitar playing. Even if there were, this takes resources he likely didn’t have. He often sites not even being able to find heavy metal records back then, and it was his father, who built his first guitars for him. He even has mentioned selling his instruments when he was at GIT so he could buy a cheap car to travel back and forth during his first introduction to Mke Varney’s studio. This doesn’t strike me as a family with the resources for PT consultation, especially for back then.

In his Mr. Big days, when he had more resources available, it could have been a possibility, but we don’t see any real drastic change in his playing technique from that era. It’s been very consistent up until recent. In fact the only real difference you really see in Paul’s technique is very recent, and I have a suspicion he may have devolved arthritis. So if any of it were true, than this would have been a recent thing like two years recent, as part of a physical therapy plan, and not anything that helped him develop his picking at a younger age. He for sure wears hearing aids now.

2: Whether RoME in this sense is applicable or not is irrelevant really. RoME doesn’t even have to be applicable to guitar playing in reality for you to be able to sell it as such. Most of your audience doesn’t know any better anyway and likely won’t question it if you showcase it with conviction, and even if they did, its is all so very anecdotal, that it’s hard to refute. Anecdotal evidence is perfect for salesmanship, because all you need then is that conviction, and to showcase your ability, and you can sell it. Again this isn’t to say it is or isn’t relevant just that it doesn’t need to be.

[joebegly]

Great post @Fossegrim

I still think he was joking when he mentioned Paul paying for this knowledge lol!

I’ve been thinking a good bit about the whole RoME/antagonistic muscles lately. In light of Tom’s opinions and what Troy always says about each individual needing to feel things for themselves, I think the most important thing is to make sure whatever motion we are using feels good and does not carry tension. Without a laboratory, how else can we really know?

The claims/salesmanship is not really important to me so much as if there is something I can walk away with. The only remaining question I have is how integral this wrist dance is to Anton’s system? Like, is it just an exercise he teaches people because it promotes the above mentioned optimizations? Or, is it actually present in some fashion as a core part of the technique? I don’t feel like I see the latter, unless it’s just really subtle. But then again, I am notoriously bad at identifying motions lol!

[Fossegrim]

@joebegly

I’ve been thinking a good bit about the whole RoME/antagonistic muscles lately. In light of Tom’s opinions and what Troy always says about each individual needing to feel things for themselves, I think the most important thing is to make sure whatever motion we are using feels good and does not carry tension. Without a laboratory, how else can we really know?

Well I would be a little cautious there too. I wouldn’t really think too much about the intellectual aspects of it, and how many options there are to employ, more so worry about the fundamental picture of “does it work for me”, and “can I stick with it consistently enough to develop it”. To me these things are better for retrospective analysis. I get that some people really love the cookbook approach to things, and it is attractive to think that if I put everything together in an exact formulation i’m guaranteed to get the desired result systematically.

Also I think the wording of no tension is a bit off too, and I admit in my younger days people using this description threw me off, because this is a very relative thing. I don’t think there is ever “no” tension, there always some, just not a laborious amount.

[joebegly]

@Fossegrim

I don’t think there is ever “no” tension, there always some, just not a laborious amount.

Yep, agreed. I mean specifically the type of tension where if we do it for a long-ish duration, we feel like a lactic acid buildup.

[Fossegrim]

@joebegly

we feel like a lactic acid buildup.

That is the funniest description I’ve read in a while.

[joebegly]

Hrrmm yeah I sound as though I’m a valley girl. Should have said

We feel a buildup of lactic acid

Not sure how else to describe the burn that happens when I play at higher speeds for longer than I have control over.

[Fossegrim]

I feel lactic acidosis just by being alive.

[joebegly]

Damn dude you’ve had some dark posts lately lol!

[Fossegrim]

What do you mean lately?

[Pablozzzz]

I do wish people these days would stop pretending to blow everything off as a “joke”. Have an opinion and stick to it. The whole, “I was just joking” thing doesn’t work for me when making serious claims.

[JAB]

I don’t think Paul withheld any information or had secretive high level training (in the 70’s in the boondocks no less)

I think the more likely answer is that there some bias confirmation coming from Anton.

I do this, and so does PG therefore ‘that’s’ why we’re good.

From what I can tell, the ‘wrist dance’ seems to involve a rotational aspect more than just wrist. Keep the pinky heel on the bridge, use a rotational movement but try and keep the pick moving in a straight line. It will look like your arm is moving up and down slightly despite a forearm component.

When either Anton or PG play fast this ‘wrist dance’ is completely absent, so I fail to understand it’s usefulness and seriously doubt it’s the secret to endurance.

Hell, look at McLaughlin who is incredibly fast (and a deviation/wrist player) but he looks quite forced/tense at times but his speed and endurance are amazing (same for Di Meola)

I think if there was some missing aspect (like the wrist dance) someone like Troy or the team would of stumbled upon it a long time ago.

As an aside, most players I like (with great stamina) seem to be USX and more forearm based (insert good Metal or Gypsy guitarist here)

[Fossegrim]

Sports medicine is still rather primitive comparatively despite the funding that gets thrown at it. If that is true now, just think about what it was in the 70’s and 80’s. Now add that to what you would have possibly been able to find in rural Pennsylvania.

That should put this to rest.

As an aside, most people who develop a good picking hand naturally, never think about why they do so. Because they can do it, there’s no reason to put it under the magnifying glass, as there is no problem to solve. Because they are also likely to practice a ton as well, they also likely believe it is just the hard work paying off.

[shredhead7]

I didn’t read every reply, but Paul did change his picking style once he got to GIT. His picking hand thumb is double jointed and he used to hold the pick nearly vertical with his thumb bent backwards and essentially saw the strings when he picked. The first Racer X record was recorded that way. If you can find early videos of him, you can see that technique. He realized once he got to GIT that for longevity, he needed to change his pick grip to protect his thumb. This could be what Anton is referring to. Paul did study under some greats at GIT, Frank Gambale is one that comes to mind.

[Fossegrim]

@shredhead7

I didn’t read every reply, but Paul did change his picking style once he got to GIT. His picking hand thumb is double jointed and he used to hold the pick nearly vertical with his thumb bent backwards and essentially saw the strings when I picked. The first Racer X record was recorded that way. If you can find early videos of him, you can see that technique. He realized once he got to GIT that for longevity, he needed to change his pick grip to protect his thumb. This could be what Anton is referring to. Paul did study under some greats at GIT, Frank Gambale is one that comes to mind.

He used the Shawn lane reverse grip for a while. He even demonstrates this in that MI video commercial on YouTube. He stopped because his thumb started to hurt but it was not under the guidance of a medical professional or researchers.