Tremolo tests, with and without metronome

Technique Critique
#8

Thanks for filming these! I moved these to their own thread to keep the other one more on track to the “phone tapping” test idea.

This is a nice looking picking motion. It looks easy and relaxed, and far from the stringhopping attempts we often see. It’s also not slow, around 200bpm give or take. Varies between 195 and 205 approximately. I will remind everyone that this is for the most part as fast as I’ve ever played in any of the things we’ve posted, and approximately as fast as Michael Angelo Batio played in our first shreddier interview with him. Hard to believe sometimes but true.

The highest speed is actually basically the same in all these clips, with and without metronome. The metronome ones are just more even. As is often the case in the examples we review, you’re not really playing along with the metronome. It looks to me like you’re mainly using it to get pumped and try harder. For future motion tests I might ditch the metronome and just focus on the getting pumped aspect. You could probably get the same result with some death metal in the backround. Maybe even better results!

The one thing that’s unusual here is the speeding up and slowing down. Whatever speed it is, tremolo doesn’t usually vary too much in tempo, at least until the end if you start to tire. So that makes me think that as relaxed as this is, there is another motion you can do that is more flat-out and will have a more typical even rapid speed pattern.

Have you taken the table tap tests in the new lessons? Those do use a metronome. Are they any faster or more even? Have you tried other mechanics like elbow?

I think given how comfortable and non-hoppy these results appear for you, some more experimentation may produce an even better motion.

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#9

Yes. I found it quite alien and can’t tap against something for love nor money, so I used my credit card and made the motion with a pen back and forth over the edge to get something audible!

EVH - 210
Al Di Meola - 220
Rotational - 190 but with spasms
Elbow - 250 but super tense and sore on the elbow
Simple door knock 280

Yes, its like I have something to aim for, otherwise I have less sense of what I’m doing.
Arnie always said the greatest feeling is ‘the pump’, I guess its the same with the guitar!

#10

I don’t know if it’s a good idea to use the metronome to get excited if you’re not really keeping in time with it. I want to say it looks like it would only hurt your ability to keep time, but that’s just a guess. It seems really wrong to me to have it going while making motions that don’t conform to it, but I admit that’s just because it seems wrong!

More importantly, when the motions are working correctly, this type of problem shouldn’t be happening. They should be easy enough to do that getting them going fast and keeping them going at a steady rate should be mostly automatic. That makes me think more experimentation is necessary.

These test numbers are very good, especially the door knocking one. Are you saying you can’t knock on table or door in time with a metronome? How did you do that test?

#11

I would say that the above takes were done rushed and if I were to spend another 5 or so mins on it I would be much smoother and way more in time, but I hear what you are saying, I shouldn’t have to hunt around for 10 minutes to get that motion - it should be 99% there from the get-go. I do tend to start most of my practice without the metronome, but I always feel I come up short when I review the speed (but then again I might be selling myself short if I’m inaccurate at reviewing!)

I’m happy to keep experimenting without metronome and see what shakes loose. Even if it helped me get this far, its definitely not a silver bullet and helping now.

The 280 (and others) were the extreme max that I could do for 9 knocks (I just tried it now and it was a bit tricky for 270) is this too short a duration for this test? Knocking on a table was fine, but for some reason I found it really hard to do the other motions tapping a pick against something like a dvd box or phone - it was jerky and weird. I found it easier to use a pen against the table and drag it over the edge of my credit card - it made it a more audible click in one direction stroke direction - these were the 8th notes against the metronome.

The elbow one was fast, but I have shit elbows. I tried it against the guitar and it was hilariously impossible, but I’d like to try it again sometime.

The biggest positive out of this so far was last night- scalar playing was going well, fast and synched. I recognised the Al Di Meola sensation of the table tests - it would come and go, but when it was on - it was on.

#12

That makes more sense. The sideways tapping can be a little tricky. But were you able to do the table knocking / vertical tapping perfectly dead in time with the metronome at a lower tempo for multiple bars? Try it at 220 with a metronome and post a clip if you get a moment. Do it in multiples of 8, which is one bar of tapping. 16 is the minimum, but three or four bars is even better as a real-world test.

#13

Any good?
Had to do it on the floor - the wife told me I was waking the kids! Lol

#14

And also, the 1st time I tried the EVH, I did the hand setup wrong and did a pen version that feels the same motion as the door knocking but easier…is this even the same motion as the door knocking?

#15

These are great. Yes the table knocking is dead to the click. That’s what you’re looking for in your picking motions, not the unsure motion in your earlier tests.

This second video is also great. It’s stupid fast, like 240bpm or thereabout. As to exactly which motion, not totally sure, but it’s in the ballpark of the EVH motion, or the table knocking motion. Which motion it is precisely doesn’t really matter so much. It’s enough to say that these are more “vertical” motions closer to up and down wrist flexion-extension rather than side to side wrist deviation motion. You’re just doing it here with your arm turned so it looks more side to side.

Both of these tests blow away your earlier tests in terms of speed, confidence, and ability to keep even time. I’m guessing these feel much easier too? If so, that’s what you’re looking for on the motions with an actual guitar in your hands. When you get it, it will be obvious, and not the kind of “am I doing it right” ambiguity that we often struggle with when we think we’re making improvements but really aren’t.

Since these more vertical motions are fast and easy for you, it’s worth trying the laptop / three-finger grip I posted in this clip. It looks very similar if not exaclty the same as the motion in your pen video here:

The idea is to make this fast tapping motion like you’re doing with the pen, and rotate the pick around in your grip until you find the point where the attack is equally smooth on upstroke and downstroke. You’ll end up with something that looks a little like George Benson or Shawn Lane. The motion will look like upstrokes, but they’re just the same tapping motion that you’re doing on the table with the pen It’s a bit of a brain teaser. I still think of it as a “downstroke” in my mind because it goes toward the guitar body.

It shouldn’t be hard to get this really confident speed happening on the string on your lap. It’s just a test. You can then work on trying to do it in a more normal playing posture.

#16

@Troy You sound like you’re enjoying yourself in this video lol

#17

If you’d just blitzed your previous ‘best’ picking BPM last week and end up able to do this a week later, I’d be laughing too! :smiley:

#18

LMAO, its so damn hard! But it is fun to try, for some reason it had me in stitches. In all fairness I need to try this more, but in case its of interest here are the highlights:

  • Very hard to hold the pick at any angle to get the even contact, probably due to the next point
  • Height of the pick is too low that it feels like I’m using Thor’s hammer.
  • I find that I end up doing more rotation than the pure knocking movement, thus not as quick feeling.
#19

Well this was interesting!

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#20

zoom zoom! That seems pretty bangin.

#21

Cheers @JB_Winnipeg. It is still hit & miss and a work in progress on the lower strings, but definitely smoother - its feels like when I’m warmed up, but its accessible almost straight away.

It was almost impossible to do the version of the knocking motion that I did with the pen/credit card, but it seems to have shown me what a knocking motion actually is - it looked more like forearm rotation to me at first - I didn’t see the flexion/extension.

If I was to sum it up, I’m feeling the knocking motion on the upstroke. I only need to add a tiny amount when I get it right, which is good considering the below

Problem to fix is on the lower strings, where the slightly different position of my ring and pinky affect my ability to knock. I tested it on the table too - if I hold out my pinky and try to knock, I can barely knock at all! On the guitar a similar problem occurs when I try and lift my middle, ring and pinky up out of the way of the strings.

That aside, I’m pretty pleased with less than an hour’s work!

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I have been trying so hard and have made no progress!
#22

@Troy, I know that its early days in experimenting with adding the knocking motion, but the issue mentioned above relating to being unable to use the knocking motion on lower strings is proving difficult to get past.

Simply put;
If my middle, ring or pinky open up or are lifted (to get out of the way of the strings), its like the breaks are put on the knocking element of the motion. :pensive: I’m going to continue experimenting, but it made me wonder - How common is it for a player to systematically use more than one motion, depending on the string being played? (Regardless of the picking patterns). For example, a single-escape pattern using elbow for lower strings and wrist for higher strings?

#23

I’m not sure what you’re referring to as a “knocking” motion, is the most recent video? Because that’s not a knocking motion. That’s forearm rotation. It’s the last of the tests in the Primer which (I think) you watched, the one with the credit card tapping. It’s probably the most specific in terms of some people being able to do it right away and others (for whatever reason), not.

If you’re getting good results forearm rotation, by all means use it. Nothing wrong with that. It is typically a USX motion and needs to be paired with USX phrases. But take a few days and see if you can do it consistently in time for at least a couple bars. WIth/without metronome doesn’t matter at first. Just see if you can get it consistent without stopping.

#24

Indeed there is forearm rotation, but it seems (by feel) that it engages when I flex or extend, like thats where the driving forces is. The flexing/extending combined with a deviation, results in an amount of rotation, but feels very different to the straight wrist forearm rotation with the credit card tapping.
I’m totally fine to accept if you say “that is forearm rotation dude/dumbass, plain and simple!” :grin: (I’ve always got more stuff wrong with CTC than I do right, so no change there!), but the physical feel of that flexing and extending is hard for me to ignore and trying just the credit card motion doesn’t yield the same results.
Also, what about the issue with the middle,ring and pinky? The same issue occurs when knocking on the table - am I adding 2+2 and getting 5?
Is this a showstopper or just more experimentation needed?

I was pretty bummed out that I couldn’t seem to take advantage of the knocking motion as you did above - either a change in grip or finger curl epically doomed my ability to execute…

#25

Yes there is some flip flopping here between wrist, wrist-forearm, and forearm. If you were to flex your wrist and only move at the wrist joint, you would end up with something like this:

This is a similar motion to the knocking motion except being performed with a lot of flex in the wrist to begin with. This is also similar to the motion Mike Stern uses here:

However, it seems like when you get going in this clip, in the middle, your motion switches to mostly forearm, similar to what @qwertygitarr does. Also a great technique. If that works well for you, no reason not to use that. This kind of experimentation is great, and pretty much where all motions I know came from. This is also where more explicit knowledge of the mechanics (which joint is which) can keep yourself from getting really confused and going around in circles chasing every new motion you come across. Because at some level they are all similar.

In your case, the number one goal is to find one motion that is fast and consistent, and does not involve speeding up / slowing down, or random starts and stops, for at least a couple of bars at a consistent tempo (with or without a metronome).

While you do this, I recommend playing some music with it so it’s not just sitting around making picking motions all the time. Create some song that has some chords, with tremolo lines in between them, where the tremolo parts have a specific number of notes in them, like four beats of sixteenths, then another chord. The Mike Stern clip is one cool way to do that. This will naturally force you to consider these motions in units or chunks of four, six, or eight notes at a time. That really helps with the hand synchronization and the ability to start / stop without losing the motion.

At some point you may find that you do less flip flopping and start doing one or more of these motions more so than others. If so, fine, take the hint and keep doing that.

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#26

Thanks @Troy, much appreciated. Just one question regarding the below quote - with my existing motion up to this point I have been able to perform mixed escapes (albeit with suspected swipes at the higher speeds). If I develop this rotational movement, is this likely to cause any issues with dsx?

#27

If your current picking motion is all starts and stops and can’t be done consistently, then it’s not super usable in its current form. So as far as causing “issues”, I would say the forearm motion, if you can do it more consistently, is actually removing issues, not causing any. Yes these motions are usually USX, but that doesn’t seem to have held Mike or George Benson back from playing complicated stuff.

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