Trouble getting decent tone with VST ampsims

[Shredd]

@Rot

I’ll have to listen again on decent headphones, but I see some frequencies being cut - this is something I need to learn tbh, just listening which frequencies to cut, and which to boost.

Absolutely worth it. Check out Nolly’s mixing videos if you haven’t yet. They’re a great place to start.

Ermin Hamidovic’s Systematic Mixing Guide is also a good and practical read about the methodology of subtractive equalization. Not free, but it’s good.

@Rot

I think the DIs you used were recorded at -12dB, now I’m trying out -14dB. What do you think is the proper level in this case?

I aim peaks between -10 and -6, but like said, it’s more of a workflow thing than technical. I like having some headroom too to make the occasional boost. As a rule of thumb I consider anything above -18 to be okay, as long as the person knows how to work with that.

I just like seeing big, healthy waveforms without zooming in a lot!

@Rot

This issue was prevalent on all PCs I ever used for recording my guitars, regardless of soundcard or interface used

Sounds to me like this is just a matter of gain staging (meaning, if you want your raw DI to be as loud as somebody else’s, record at the same level and then turn down the amp VST’s input stage accordingly to retain your original sound) and mixing/mastering. Backing tracks are probably mastered up to a commercial level nowadays, just like material on Youtube and Spotify are.

[Rot]

@Shredd

Backing tracks are probably mastered up to a commercial level nowadays, just like material on Youtube and Spotify are.

Yup, that’s why it does not bother me anymore, at least not to an extend it used to.

@Shredd

I aim peaks between -10 and -6, but like said, it’s more of a workflow thing than technical.

Oh, I think my Schecter was beginning to clip at -6, in any case the level indicator in my IF driver was beginning to show yellow if I remember correctly.
Might just give it a try and compare, and also this:

@Shredd

I just like seeing big, healthy waveforms without zooming in a lot!

My waveforms were never really that big. If I need them bigger I just either zoom in or normalize items (not sure what the latter really does though apart from making waveforms bigger).
I have a friend over ATM, so I think I’ll post a comparison of various levels later this evening (it’s 8:30PM here so pretty soon). Especially since I got new guitar delivered yesterday!

[Shredd]

Normalizing takes the audio, reads its maximum peak level, and increases that peak level to a desired value, for example commonly to 0 dB. It doesn’t compress, it just basically raises the volume to max without clipping. There’s also loudness normalizing which works by reading overall level over a length of time.

It’s fine to normalize if you’re done recording already and select all your recorded material and do a single normalization command. But it can get confusing if you keep normalizing audio items here and there, because then those gain boosts won’t be identical anymore. Having dealt with amp sims and DIs for a long time, you already know what would happen.

@Rot

Especially since I got new guitar delivered yesterday!

Oh cool! Then definitely we need clips AND pics!

[Rot]

Ok, so I made some samples through Amped Roots - I chose this one because it was the most “gainy” of them all, I’ve had my complaints about it being “boomy” in the bass as well.
All of the samples begin at -12dB, then -6dB and finish at -3dB - two repetitions of the riff each level.
Also, the same riff was played on all three guitars.

Here’s how it looks in Reaper:

Notice how the last samples are squared? Peaks cut right off from the top side. Is that compression or what?

And here’s how it sounds:

Vendetta:

Blackjack:

Flame LPIV:

Speaking of which:
It is a cheaper brand of Polish company called Mayones.
This particular model is “inspired by” Gibson’s Les Pauls.
Only the wood is completely differnt - alder body, maple set-in neck.
This one was modified - Shaller tuners (unfortunately not locking ones), Gotoh bridge, EMG 81 and 89 pickups.
And it weighs a friggin ton.
Unfortunately it is currently sporting very old strings and it shows/feels.
There’s also the distinct smell of electronics coming from it, sort of like an old, kinescopic TV. I dunno how to describe it.

Here’s some pics:

By the way - is it just me, or all three sound almost exactly the same?

[Shredd]

Cool stuff man!

@Rot

Notice how the last samples are squared? Peaks cut right off from the top side. Is that compression or what?

That looks like clipping to me. Does the raw DI sound okay? I’m not entirely sure why that’s happening there. It looks like the signal has clipped before it hit your DAW, because the clipping has occured below the highest peaks of the other recordings.

Maybe try new batteries for the EMGs. Somebody with more knowledge of active pickups might be able to chime in here?

I checked out the ESI UGM96 interface you’re using, and I do have to say it looks like it’s likely to cause some head scratching. It’s old for sure, but it’s a very mobile-oriented entry level device and from what I can see, it doesn’t even have basic gain or output level controls.

I appreciate the mentality of working with what you have, and it’s all good, but if you’re into recording guitar and have been at it for years, I’d highly recommend getting a decent interface. By decent I mean something in the 150-200€ range: an SSL2 or Focusrite Scarlett 212 would do very well. They’ll provide a lot more control over things and give you a better idea of what’s going on with your signal at each phase. The drivers are going to be a lot better, too.

The Flame looks cool! Classic rock style.

@Rot

By the way - is it just me, or all three sound almost exactly the same?

They sound similar to me too. The IR has a huge impact on the tone itself, and in this instance the guitars/pickups have their own details in the sound. For example the Blackjack has a low-mid resonance that the Vendetta doesn’t have, and the Flame sounds brighter and has more bite than the Vendetta, while its lows aren’t as thick.

The IR or cab/mic placement is “the big picture” of the sound.

Edit: Forgot to ask: How are you controlling your input gain?

[Rot]

@Shredd

Maybe try new batteries for the EMGs.

Actually I think I noticed similar thing going on when battery in my Schecter was dying. Soon after I lost a good part of signal from the bridge pickup. So maybe it’s the same.

@Shredd

it doesn’t even have basic gain or output level controls.

It does, however software. No knobs or anything on the device itself, just a lever in the driver.

@Shredd

an SSL2 or Focusrite Scarlett 212 would do very well

Will do once I save up some money - I doubt it is going to be this month, however, my bank kind of screwed me over tonight.
But it is definitely on my list, as the current IF’s drivers are causing BSODs sometimes, and I have to diconnect it when turning on my PC.

@Shredd

For example the Blackjack has a low-mid resonance that the Vendetta doesn’t have, and the Flame sounds brighter and has more bite than the Vendetta, while its lows aren’t as thick.

Which is kinda weird given the strings on the Flame are almost prehistoric.
But yeah, I agree with Flame having less boomy low end, which is kinda neat.
Tbh I was more inclined towards buying something passive this time around, but I got what was available at the moment. It was choosing between this one and some LP-shaped Schecter. And while Schecter would be a superior guitar I think, I chose the cheaper option.
And the same day I was picking it up someone offered me ESP LTD EC-1000 which is something I was drooling over since 2019.

@Shredd

The IR or cab/mic placement is “the big picture” of the sound.

Agree - that’s why I used exact same ampsim and cab IR for all three. Just to see and compare them and to see what level is the best.

@Shredd

Edit: Forgot to ask: How are you controlling your input gain?

As I mentioned - it’s done via driver, you bring up the driver’s window and adjust here:

Which has lots of flaws, but works.
The input is asymmetrical because the left one is Hi-Z input, and right is for microphone.

[Drew]

Coming back to this with some time to listen, and honestly… I don’t have anything to add, really. I think the tones you’re getting from your DIs sound fine, and while they sound a little different from the tones from my DIs, it’s a different guitar and different player so that’s to be expected, and I don’t know idf I’d say they’re better or worse, just a little different.

I’ll also note that I figured out why mine sounded like absolute crap when I threw a VST on them in Reaper - I was using ReaVerb as the IR host, and forgot that by default ReaVerb loads IRs with dry volume at 100% and wet volume at like -12db, so i was getting mostly the dry/unemulated output. With the dry set to 0 I’m getting much better results.

[Rot]

@Drew

I was using ReaVerb as the IR host

Why would you do that in the first place?

As for the topic itself… I’d still like to know which level “sounds the best” out of those I posted last time.
Also now I figure that most of the issue is in mixing. Solo’d guitar seems to be in right spot at the moment.

[Shredd]

@Rot

I’d still like to know which level “sounds the best” out of those I posted last time.

Listening again, I think the first two gain levels sound the best to me personally. I like the middle one as an all-around tone. The third gets a little too saturated and clippy for my tastes, but it could definitely be used as a temporary “effect” on some particular part in a song. Like showing off the guitar riff on its own just before drums and bass come in, etc. (However I’d still investigate what is causing that squaring-out clipping)

In any case, as long as you’re not clipping your input, you’re good to go and you can adjust the incoming level from the VST amp input stage to get the sound you want.

[Drew]

@Rot

Why would you do that in the first place?

Well, ReaVerb is their IR/convolution reverb, and you can load one or several of their included IRs, but it also allows you to easily load your own IRs in its place. A lot of the more reverb-specific features are pointless for a cab IR - pre-delay, wet/dry mix, that kind of stuff… but it IS a very effective, low-CPU, efficient IR loader, and when set to 100% wet, works perfectly. I could probably find something fancier, but why?

[Donny]

TLDR

First thing I thought was, pickups possibly too close to the strings.
The video you posted seems to possibly show this also.
I’d suggest 2mm for the neck (string fretted at last fret) and 1.5mm for bridge to begin with. It’s worth a shot.

[Rot]

@Drew

Well, ReaVerb is their IR/convolution reverb, and you can load one or several of their included IRs, but it also allows you to easily load your own IRs in its place. A lot of the more reverb-specific features are pointless for a cab IR - pre-delay, wet/dry mix, that kind of stuff… but it IS a very effective, low-CPU, efficient IR loader, and when set to 100% wet, works perfectly. I could probably find something fancier, but why?

I was convinced that this plugin is just a more complicated reverb.

@Donny

First thing I thought was, pickups possibly too close to the strings.
The video you posted seems to possibly show this also.

The video was done with another guitar, which does not clip.

[Drew]

@Rot

I was convinced that this plugin is just a more complicated reverb.

Well, it is… If you use it for its intended purpose. It’s a convolution reverb, but also gives you the ability to load your own impulses if you have others you’d like to try (and the Samplicity Bricasti M7 pack is great, if you need something free to play with). However, nowhere does it force you to use only reverb impulses, and provided you don’t need to model multiple mics on the same cab, it’s the cheapest and easiest way I’m aware of to get a cab impulse on a VST.