Trying DWPS and swiping. What do you think about the swiping?

Technique Critique
#1

Being a UWPS player for 15 years, DWPS have been quite a challenge. So this is work in progress. 2WPS is still far too early for me and my attempts at that have been horrible. But I love the possibilities and feel of DWPS and I would love to make it work for all the licks I’ve previously been doing with UWPS.

So now I try to make things work with one way DWPS and swiping for ascending runs and DWPS and escape hatch for descending runs. But I would love some feedback on if I’m on the right track or not. Swiping can sound really bad and I can’t make up my mind.

Here I’m trying out ascending sixes using DWPS and swiping. For reference I play repeated threes which doesn’t require swiping. First and third licks are sixies and second and forth licks are threes. Lastly I attempt a full scale run using swiping. The full ascending scale is actually the goal here. It’s something I could never play with UWPS.

So… how do you think this sounds? Does the swiping stand out like a sore thumb?

#2

YouTube link not working! Maybe the wrong URL, or set to “private” instead of “unlisted”?

#3

Ok changed to public on YT but not sure if I need to embed in some way too…?

#4

Yep looks like the embed is working now. Either “public” or “unlisted” will work.

#5

We have the same issue! I feel your pain.

In the video you do a repetition at 0:35 that sounds mostly clean, so I would study that section a bit and try to replicate that. Otherwise, there is a mixture of swiped sounds but also notes where the pick is totally missing the strings. I get that a lot.

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#6

The picking looks pretty good to me, i can hear the swipes but on a level that I wouldn’t mind too much at that speed.
But I might be wrong there.
My interpretation of what i hear and see is that your fretting hand is not perfectly synced.
For a better understanding it might be of help to post a video with the same picking pattern but 6 times the same node per string.

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#7

I want to hate swiping because it seems like a sloppy solution. I fear though that I may already be doing it unintentionally. I need to get some slo mo of my picking posted up soon.

#8

Yeah I still have a lot of unpredictability in the swiped parts. And missed notes. I think Troy calls it “pushing” when you don’t push hard enough to get through the string. I often get that when swiping.

Have you tried swiping with UWPS also? I could never get that to work at all. In this video I at least can’t feel the string changes but I’m still not sure about the sound of it. With UWPS my swiping feels, and totally sounds, like car crashes.

The 0:35 part is the threes lick that contains no swiping but I agree that there is also better flow in that one. And a bit more open. Thanks for your input!

Ok. It’s also hard to say if it’s gonna sound good using an other sound. There the swiping might be more exaggerated. Anyway, thanks for you opinion!

Is there some good way of thinking when minimising the swiping sound other than mute properly with the left hand?

I guess my hand sync isn’t totally locked up yet using DWPS and I agree that it’s hard to hear the swiping when other parts are sloppy as well. I might have to try you suggestion to only play one note per string. Great idea!

Yeah I can see what you’re coming from. We want to be clean and powerful but at the same time, for me, I want it to FEEL effortless. And that’s even more important to me. DWPS feels great while 2WPS is a lot of work, at least for me. That’s why I need to get your judgement as to if I’m just fooling myself. :blush:

But please post a video in your own thread! I’d love to feedback on that! :slight_smile:

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#9

double post :slight_smile:

#10

This is the main point for me. The easier something feels, the more likely I can play it relaxed and enjoy the music (this would be my primary concern especially in a live situation).

Another thought: swiping may result in a slightly lower quality of sound, but I believe it has great advantages in terms of timing, compared to a more complex TWPS movement which is harder to keep in the pocket. This may be only valid for me though.

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#11

It’s a good idea to look for ways without swiping, the reason is that it does not solve all problems, especially if you need ringing notes, it’s no option. So to be complete you’ll need more.
For 3 NPS with one way slant it’s an option and opens up basically all scale scenarios.

For sloppy, I guess it depends on what you target. I’m pretty sure 99% of the world don’t even realize when it happens. So if you don’t have any plans businesswise it’s fine I’d say.
On the other hand it’s like a point on the back on your back you wanna scratch and can’t reach, once you’re aware of it it can drive you crazy.

To me as rule of thunb it’s this: If you don’t feel it while picking it’s fine, otherwise you need to work on it.

#12

The reason i pointed on syncing is not only hearing what happens with the picking hand.
Very often out of sync means one hand falls behind and then your brain tries to focus on 2 things at the same time which results inaccuracy.
The picking motion seems tgo escape properly in general, so it might happen that everything is fine once your fretting hand works properly by itself.

#13

Ya I know, I’m not saying I don’t see any value in swiping… like I said, I WANT to hate it just on principle but I see where it can be useful. I guess I see it as a last resort if you can’t get there using other techniques, or if it feels natural like mentioned above and you can’t feel or hear it.

Another option is thumb movement. I’m finding the thumb extension or retraction movement lifts the pick slightly which can get you over the string. To me this feels more natural then switching pick slants. I’ve only been working on it for about a week and seeing positive results as mentioned in my other thread. Ill update my thread with some more video of my recent findings later today.

#14

Yes, I agree about the timing. At least I feel like the easier it feels to play a lick, the easier it is to work with the timing of it and also to phrase it better. But the effortless thing is of course something one can work on with new techniques. For me though, 2WPS is really awkward as my UWPS and DWPS is so different. I’ve seen your 2WPS playing Tommo, and it looks so natural and relaxed. Did you work on both DWPS and UWPS separately before you went on to 2WPS?

Yeah your probably right about that. I’m concentrating too much on the picking hand and just take the sync for granted. Sometime I try to practise only one hand at a time but it still feels very different when playing them together. Also I think it’s interesting to experiment with what part of you playing you concentrate on when performing something technically like this. I guess I shouldn’t think too much about the practical part of the playing as much as the musical.

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#15

I think @Troy noticed swiping in my picking when I posted some videos a while ago. I also was using my forearm a lot. I switched to wrist suppination ( I think that is what it is called). I really look at Troy’s magnet videos and try to emulate his picking. At first, the DWPS was easy, but the UWPS escape was difficult for me. After a couple of months, it seems more natural. I’m able to do circular type, multiple string, 3 note scale type runs with more ease and speed. The speed is coming in a more natural fashion. I try to push the envelope until I just can’t go any faster. I’m not worried about being sloppy at first because I’m trying to build speed muscle memory. I later correct any deficiencies I notice. My speed has increased for me to at least a point where I feel I’m getting very close to the speeds I perceive guitar greats are at. I’m not quite there, but I’m getting close.

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#16

Thanks everybody for your thoughts and advise. Just though I’d share the opposite part of my scale playing.

For descending I’m also not sure what is the best choice. My 2WPS is a wreck but of course there is no other way to fully pick a descending 3 note per string scale, except for UWPS and swiping. But that feels horrible.

So I have three different strategies; DWPS with escape, UWPS with escape and 2WPS. But as you can see my DWPS and UWPS is so different that the 2WPS rotation gets totally over the top. I guess you can clearly see when I switch from DWPS to UWPS to 2WPS in the video.

Is there anyone else that have had this problem and worked out a solution?

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#17

Is there any video of this thumb extension movement? I’d love to see! :slight_smile:

#18

Thank you, that is very encouraging! :sunglasses: I’d say my TWPS works in some licks, in others not yet, so a lot of things are still under construction! I am not sure I am practicing the optimal way, but I did/ am still doing a mish-mash of things: some UWPS practice, some DWPS, some TWPS, sometimes I feel like I’m making great progress, other times I feel like I can’t play guitar at all :smiley: . But to answer you more directly, I think my natural orientation was UWPS, and I spent a decent amount time practicing DWPS licks which initially felt very alien!

#19

TWPS is pretty hard to get, so no reason to get discouraged.
Troy’s crosspicking lesson and/or the Albert Lee interview will give you an option - it’s basically one way slanting with wrist flexion - sounds strange on first view because it’s the same motion as string hopping but only on every second stroke.

I haven’t it mastered it yet either, Troy’s approach seems a liitle easier to me though.
I picked almost flat before - with light tendency to UWPS and i swiped all scales … when it felt bad i just picked with more strength. That worked fine in the past but i feel that my body asks for more efficiency.
At least i reached a point now that i can play without feeling the swipe which is a great progress and I’m glad i changed at all.
I try to get rid of the swiping now entirely, therfor a practice mostly wih open strings and chord patterns, so i can hear when I’m swiping.
The rotaion move that you do was my first try too, it works for me with 3 NPS patterns - there’s enough time to rotate. But I don’t feel very comfortable with that, it doesn’t hurt but it feels as if I don’t want to do that for a long time. Actually I try to blend wrist flexion and rotation, both with small amount. That feels good but it’s not coordinated yet.

One thing that helped me a lot is concentrating on my fingers, I try to lift the pick with my index on upstrokes and push it up with the thumb on downstrokes, then I let my body figure out how to handle that. Once you figured out how the strokes should feel you have instant feedback on each stroke whenou do them - right or wrong.

Hope that helps a little, but I’d highly recommend that 2 videos before starting, Troy figured out a lot of details. The MAB video is also about TWPS (conquering the scale if i remember right) but the motion is very uncommon - that’s probably optional.

Edit:
Ohhh i forgot one.
If you don’t insist on pure alternate picking economy picking and/or hammer pullof are the common strategies on scales and oneway slanting.
The Yngwie and Eric approach is economy on ascending and pullof on descending.

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#20

The first two are great! I wouldn’t worry too much about which one you use, they both work fine. You are multiple players in one.

Re: the “2wps” form: I assume you aware that your “dwps” form has a forearm component, and your “uwps” form is wrist. Nothing wrong with that. But part of the reason you don’t feel they integrate is because you are using two completely different picking movements. I would not expect them to integrate. So forget about your current 2wps movement - don’t bother with it, you’re not going to fix that by doing whatever you’re doing.

Instead, just use one of your other two movements but pick all the notes without thinking about what the arm is doing. What happens when you try that? As Andy Wood says “just floor it”. What happens?

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