Trying to work through a plateau

Technique Critique
#1

Hi, everyone - back at it, after an absence. I’m trying to get past a plateau in my alternate picking technique. I’m stuck at what feels like a clumsy version of USX. Issues that I think slow me down:

-too much of a pickslant. I’d like my picking motion to be at a more shallow angle
-my range of motion is overly ulnar
-there’s a lot of forearm in my motion - optimally I’d like this to be a more purely wrist motion.

What is the best way to address these issues? Is it just about recognizing your tendencies and NOT doing them? Or is there a more basic set-up question involved?

I describe this as a plateau - partly because it seems that I have a bit of a speed limit, and partly because, however comfortable I may get with my technique as is, I can’t seem to transition to DSX. (I assume it would be easier if my pickslant were less extreme, for starters - but the only way I seem to be able to make that happen is by pronating my forearm quite a bit. Am I doing it wrong? Or is this set-up / motion just how I’m designed?

Normal speed:

Slow motion:

Thanks for your time!

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#2

Hey @alecberlin welcome back! Thanks for posting and for the very clear filming!

Looks like primarily forearm rotation to me and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that! It’s a picking style that lends itself well to USX vocabulary (gipsy jazz, Yngwie, Eric Johnson, etc.).

However, it seems to me you are holding back a bit in terms of speed. Perhaps this is because you are trying to consciously control too many details?

What happens when you do a fast tremolo picking with this motion (or any other motion that you find comfortable)? Just bang on a single note at — or close to — your max picking speed.

Would be instructive to see and we can take it from there :slight_smile:

#3

Is there a reason you need to be able to transition to DSX? Eric Johnson and Yngwie don’t ever do this and they both have a pretty extensive vocabularies :wink:

I agree with Tommo about it looking rotational and that does have USX-Exclusive implications. You would need near total wrist movement or a really clever helper motion to switch to DSX (or more “mixed escape”)

#4

So most of the time people who are playing at higher speeds are incorporating more than one motion at once whether they realize it or not. It’s often a broad motion in conjunction with some sort of a more spastic twitchy one.

From what I see. You have all the right ingredients for a broad USX. You are using a large rotation that is clearing the string plane on an upstroke, you may need to just incorporate something else to help it along. I would say to that it is good to practice licks at first that are only on two strings to build this up, and play around with it.

Another thing too. Playing with distortion helps things. Playing with a clean tone tends to be a little harder because there is a big difference between the transient, sustain and decay of the note. Playing with distortion tends to compress things and evens those things out a bit so you can relax the picking hand a little. Distortion also brings out other aspects too you want to be conscious of and conquer at the same time, like noise. So if you normally play distorted most of the time, I would practice with that tone.

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#5

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

I realize that there is a career’s worth of vocabulary available only with the USX motion, but I truly appreciate the reminders!

I’m interested in DSX - and a more pure wrist motion - for a few reasons:

-from re-watching all the new Primer material recently for the first time in a few years, my takeaway was that, at a certain level, players are adjusting their escape strokes on the fly, as the phrase dictates. Maybe there are long stretches of USX, or DSX, or what-have-you, but melody determines what note you play, and melody don’t care about string changing - so your technique has to be infinitely flexible. IE, you need USX, DSX, DBX, all at the ready.

-I notice that when I play descending lines, my hand has a natural tendency to orient towards DSX anyway, although I can’t quite pull off the motion, with my given set-up. This makes me think that DSX is in there somewhere, I just can’t quite figure out how to unearth it.

-In addition to playing lines, I’m really interested in developing my right hand for rhythm playing - in particular both 16th-based funk comping and also big open acoustic strumming. In at least one point in the primer materials Troy references DSX as the best motion for those styles.

I agree with what was said about distortion as a way to facilitate certain technical things, but it’s really important to me to develop a technique that is applicable to a wide variety of sounds.

Anyway, @tommo, here’s me banging on one note at (or at least near) critical velocity:

normal:

slow mo:

Thanks again!

#6

I should add - one observation that I made from re-watching the primer videos is that people’s angle of motion seems to be mostly more shallow than mine, which intuitively makes sense in terms of switching back and forth between USX and DSX - with a shallower angle there’s less of a change to make. But the angle in the videos feels natural to me at the moment. Is this just a matter of me re-training myself with a shallower angle, or is there something more structural that will address the issue?

#7

I think you are taking some of these things and terms a little too much to heart in as much as being absolutes. Just because someone naturally plays in a way that facilitates a USX predominantly, doesn’t mean you can’t incorporate a mixed escape when you need it. It doesn’t mean you need to adjust your whole playing style to DSX just to do certain things. Likewise Also just because a person who plays funk rhythms may more commonly be a DSX player, doesn’t mean a USXer is incapable of playing them. For example, in the case of any open rhythm style, a lot of this goes out the window because you may not be using a tactile point that would naturally dictate either, and your not thinking in terms of clean string crossing really.

There’s always a danger of looking at this through too narrow of a lens, it leads to approaching this in absolutes and I think both Troy and Tom have trying to correct that for a while.

#8

i totally agree, @fossegrim - that’s my point! given the way i currently execute USX, i’m not able to easily access other motions - and that feels like a plateau. i want to access other motions, but my question is if i ought to tweak some things about my set up in order to make that happen.

#9

Great clips! To me, there seem to be not only rotational movement but also some elbow action in your tremolo motion. It makes for a really powerful and strong attack with great sound but the speed seem a bit limited. What would happen if you would try to embrace the rotational part of the movement more and not worry so much about getting a really strong attack? In my experience “shaking” the arm like you are putting out a match can make for a very fast rotational motion and since you are already doing rotation, it could work for you as well. But then you have to not worry about the strength of the attack. That comes with time. Just try to get some relaxed speed going.

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#10

Take note of this:

And therein lies the value of the combined “twitchy spastic” motion I mentioned earlier. :wink:

#11

Well yeah. Personally, for funk rhythm playing, for example I wouldn’t anchor your hand really like you are doing for your single note playing you posted. I also wouldn’t be too concerned with USX or DSX. Instead I would focus on that “match out” movement similar to what qwerty mentioned and work with pick grip so you don’t drop it. Let your left hand do a lot of the muting. That’s a whole different skill set than single note playing.

For single notes I would do what you are doing in the videos and adjust your rotation so it isn’t as broad when you are picking multiple notes on a single string. Again this is more of a fine gyration like what qwerty is mentioning. Then I would combine that with a more broad motion when you are changing strings to facilitate an escape. You want to get this to a point where you aren’t thinking about it and it just becomes natural. It will require some bench work as I say to come up with something that works for you. I think you are on the right track.

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#12

Didn’t see it mentioned, but from the camera angle it looks like you’re not anchoring with the wrist or fingertips. You might be able to get more speed / control if you did.

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#13

Great advice from everyone,

I’d just like to add a couple comments / observations:

I tapped along with the tremolo test and it seems to be in the range of 150bpm 16th notes. This is not bad at all (fast enough for plenty “flashy” licks) but it seems to me like you may be holding back. Are you truly going all out in that video, or are you trying to control a few too many variables?

You could try some of the advice above (e.g. experimenting with anchor points etc.) to see how much more you got left in the tank (I suspect quite a lot :slight_smile: )

There’s a lot to address here, but I’d start by saying that this ambition of conquering every possible motion could lead you down a rabbit hole with not a lot of music in it :wink:

Keep in mind that at slow-medium speed, where most of the “melody” lies in my opinion, you can pretty much play anything with any combination of pickstrokes.

At faster playing speeds it’s more about texture and target tones in my opinion, and the exact notes in between matter a little less. Hence, you can typically modify lines a little so that they sound essentially the same but are playable with a given mechanics.

If you look at most elite players, there’s a clear pattern of things they play fast, and things they avoid when going full speed. Yet I would not call YJM’s or Eric Johnson’s playing “melodically limited”. I think @joebegly was saying something similar :slight_smile:

I don’t recall this — what section are you referring to? I think that strumming is pretty much its own animal, and I don’t think we have evidence that “DSX single-note players” are better or worse at it than USX ones.

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#14

Of course I can’t find the section now… as I recall it was in the introductory material, prior to the tutorials, and it was an overview of DSX. Troy was wearing a Purple Rain t-shirt and made the point almost as an afterthought that, in addition to all the other common uses of DSX, it is very often used for funk-style comping.

I realize that rhythm playing is a different beast from single-note playing. It’s on my radar because my strumming both in terms of funk playing and acoustic tends to be very elbow-driven. I would like it to shift towards a more wrist-based motion, because I’m inclined to think that it will sound better, feel better, be smoother and more relaxed, etc. And I assume (perhaps wrongly) that although strumming is a different beast, if I can develop my wrist on single note playing it will help with rhythm playing too.

#15

From personal experience (I’m a primary DSX player), I can say that I don’t think my DSX single-note skills translate into strumming skills.

I would simply dedicate part of your guitar time to funk strumming, trying to find the most comfortable form by experimentation (don’t forget to try the 3-finger grips, which works particularly great with strumming — see e.g. Paul Gilbert when he strums).

I can recommend this awesome funk lesson by one of the unsung heroes of the genre:

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#16

Not to nitpick, but I didn’t see this mentioned: Isn’t funk comping quite largely done with forearm plus wrist? I can’t see myself doing it with only wrist, at least. Maybe this was obvious to all, but just making sure since a desire for wrist-based funk comping was mentioned specifically. :slight_smile:

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#17

I thought this too. I’d only ever do this with forearm and wrist. I can’t imagine doing it wrist only…

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#18

I think that was the intended implication of it. Im not sure many would even attempt to play rhythm style like that anchored in the typical ways you would for lead. If you did, you would likely realize the limitations to doing so relatively quickly on your own. I or least I would assume.

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#19

thanks for all the responses!

clearly i’m still educating myself in terms of picking and strumming motions. i don’t mean to say that funk comping is a pure wrist motion. but i think it is typically not a pure elbow motion, which it often is for me. i think the wrist idea got lodged in my brain from seeing people online (not here) say that funk comping is the same as single note playing but you flex your wrist. maybe there is some truth to that for some people… in any case, i’ll keep experimenting, especially with a blend of forearm / wrist.

it’s not funk, of course, but i also crave this technique:

which looks to me like mostly wrist and extremely flex’d, right?

#20

thanks for this, @tommo !