What's Your Fastest Method Of UWPS?

The question posed by the thread title may need some clarifying so I’ll attempt to clarify it here: If you want to do upward pick slanting so that your pickstroke escapes the plane of the strings on every downstroke, what is the fastest method you have found for what would amount to tremolo picking where you’re playing the fastest tremolo picking you’re capable of while still escaping from the plane of the strings on every downstroke?

Personally I have found that using the elbow results in the fastest tremolo picking I can do, but if I use the elbow only, the pick moves back and forth horizontally - it never escapes from the plane of the strings. So unless I’m mistaken, if you choose to do upward pick slanting using the elbow as the primary driver of the pick motion, you still have to add another driver besides the elbow in order for the pick to move upwards enough to escape the plane of the strings.

So, if you’re using the elbow as your primary driver when doing UWPS, what motion driver have you found that works best in conjunction with the elbow for the fastest UWPS tremolo picking possible? Is it turning of the forearm combine with elbow motion?? Is it wrist extension combined with elbow? Is it something else combined with elbow?

@Troy I know you’ve spent a tremendous amount of time and effort trying various picking techniques. I’d really like to use the elbow but using the elbow alone results in horizontal pick motion only - motion that never escapes the plane of the strings - is that correct? So what motion driver have you found personally to work best for upward pick slanting to use in combination with the elbow? Or, of the players you’ve observed who use primarily elbow for upward pick slanting, what other driver do they most often add to elbow motion to change the pick motion from horizontal (which doesn’t escape the plane of the strings) into a motion that escapes the plane of the strings on every downstroke? Thank you!

No, the elbow is a downstroke escape motion.

Thanks Troy. So are you saying that if you want to develop a smooth, fast tremolo picking motion which escapes the plane of the strings on every downstroke, using the elbow as your only motion driver without adding a secondary motion driver, such as wrist flexion for example, is sufficient?

Tremolo just means playing the same note repeatedly, it doesn’t require escaping. So yes elbow is fine for tremolo. It’s the fastest picking motion we’ve been able to film directly, to the extent that getting that kind of speed matters.

If you want to play a tremolo, or any kind of line, that switches strings then you will have chunk it so your downstroke is the last note on the string. Doesn’t matter if you are fretting a single note or multiple notes per pickstroke, the downstroke is the escape stroke.

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Although I realize tremolo doesn’t require escaping, it seemed to me that if I want to develop the ability for upward pick slanting (currently I’m a DWPS player), practicing a tremolo that escapes on every upstroke would be a good practice tool. Do you agree?

And yes, the downstroke is the escape stroke, so if I understood you correctly, when making that escape stroke, using elbow along as the only motion driver is sufficient for making that escape stroke. If I seem surprised at learning this, it’s because I thought the elbow was fine for playing a tremolo where the pick doesn’t escape the strings, but on an escape stroke while using elbow driven UWPS, I thought a motion driver capable of moving in a vertical rather than just a horizontal direction was necessary. But you’re telling me the elbow does move upwards enough that elbow motion as the only motion driver is sufficient for making UWPS escape strokes.

Unclear. A tremolo is just a wall of notes, and I can’t tell by feel which pickstroke is which unless I add obvious accents. Some kind of repeating phrase is much easier to keep track of to ensure locked sync, with accents if necessary.

If someone is new, and has no picking motion at all, or is experienced but learning a new motion they can’t do at all, there is possibly an argument for just doing that motion fast, with no left hand, to see if they can get the feel for what “smooth and fast” feels like. But I’m not sure where the cutoff is where you then move to both hands. My guess is it should probably be as soon as possible.

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Excellent. Thank you very much, Troy.

For me, the fastest is a bastardized version of Michael Angelo Batio’s fast picking: an arched “bridge” with a flexed wrist with fingers touching the body below the high E string. The picking motion itself includes small forearm rotation and wrist elements, but feels primarily like a tightly regulated elbow flexion-extension movement. My max speed with this is perhaps not quite as fast as with a free and more supinated “hyper-picking” type approach, but it gives way more control, and in particular gives very consistent pickstroke depth. I haven’t mastered Mike’s TWPS with this setup yet, but I definitely think it’s doable. I haven’t put in the work to get my fretting hand chops caught up with the picking, but for now I’m more interested in developing the Andy Wood style wrist-oriented one-note-per-string stuff, which presents a bigger picking-hand challenge for me.

First of all thank you very much for your in-depth reply!

I have a question: You say it feels primarily like a tightly regulated elbow flexion-extension movement. Do you mean by that that you’re flexing the elbow on the upstroke and extending the elbow on the downstroke?

Also you say the motion itself includes small forearm rotation and wrist elements. If you could, would you tell me the purpose that forearm rotation and wrist elements serve to accomplish that you wouldn’t be able to accomplish with just the tightly regulated elbow flexion-extension? I can see how that might be a difficult question to answer but if you can answer it I would really appreciate it!

Calling @milehighshred and @thecount our local masters of jiggle picking!

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Good idea! I saw milehigh on here recently but I have’t seen The Count on here in ages! I hope he’s doing alright.

THANK YOU for calling it jiggle picking :slight_smile:

I’m going to save myself typing time by just sharing this:

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The wrist and forearm component may just be side-effects of the “anchoring” below the strings and the elbow movement. It’s hard to tell whether that’s the case or if I’m doing some kind of “twitch” with my wrist as well. I can do straightforward “pronated” or at least “not-so-supinated” UWPS with this setup using a forearm rotation mechanic, but it’s not as fast as the elbow flexion-extension version. I should probably put up videos of these things at some point, but I’ll need to mooch a better phone for slo-mo.

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Hey everyone!
Sorry for my absence on the forum recently. Still been checking in on it but haven’t seen any topics I felt I could add much too. I’m doing fine though!

My elbow spasm is upward pickslanting. I can’t do the same motion with a downward slant and I have no idea why. I can’t cross strings with it though. Maybe if I trained it I might be able to, but frankly there’s other things I’d rather practice. I’ve relegated my 24 note per second thing to ‘party trick’ rather than something I can use musically. Maybe someone will be able to develop some insane fret hand speed and string crossing and do something cool with it!

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My guess is Troy will answer that ‘pure’-ish elbow is inherently UPS. I agree with that but think that if the shoulder is pushed forward to overhang the guitar as some players do, and the face of the guitar is angled sufficiently, then you can get close to elbow DWPS. Usually though it involves forearm rotation and upper arm rotation e.g. ‘gypsy’ style.

Regarding Milehighshred’s jiggling, there’s clearly quite a bit of elbow extension/flexion and some upper arm not to mention pectoral jiggling. :slight_smile: My prejudice is to say anything that efficient probably follows from some fairly natural body mechanics i.e. upper arm ‘throwing/pulling’ the forearm extension/flexion and forearm throwing the wrist.

I was referring only to my 24 note per second trick I recorded last year. I can do elbow picking with dwps but not at those kind of speeds. 18+ notes a second have to be ups for some reason! Why? A mystery to me!

Interesting topic. I’ve noticed my fastest picking (~17 nps) requires my wrist to be about 3 inches above the guitar. I guess that gives me more linear velocity for the tiny radial movements I make.

It looks really similar to MAB from the front view, and uses the elbow/rotation twitch combo as the main driver… which apparently is pretty common for these speeds.

But one thing I don’t do is anchoring like MAB does. I used to… but now I just let the fingers glide. Also, I still try to keep my regular mechanic in tact. So I still do use my wrist & fingers… but it’s very subtle.

Anyway, I don’t do this very often… but I feel like I can cross the strings at these high speeds… and even do descending CAGED patterns… But honestly… it’s so fast, maybe I’m fooling myself… maybe this is impossible.

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This sounds pretty cool! I’d love to see some footage if you can get some together!

Sure, I’ll put something together. I’m recovering from over-practicing at the moment. So it’ll probably be monday.

Hey John! Nice video. That was impressive. I have a question: Are the muscles in your wrist spasming and/ or tense, or are the muscles in the wrist very loose and relaxed? The reason I ask is I’m trying to figure out if your wrist is moving back and forth because it is lose and relaxed and the hammer curl muscle and biceps and triceps spasming are indirectly causing the wrist to jiggle by making your forearm tremble quickly. That’s what it looks like to me.

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