Where else is slow-then-build-speed a bad idea?

Playing Technique
#1

A foundational idea often discussed on this forum, that you don’t get to “fast” by starting with “slow,” may have been intuitive for some of you - but for sure not me.

I’m wondering whether it’s true elsewhere in guitar playing. After all, speed is to some degree a facet of just about every style and technique, once your skill advances far enough.

Has anyone found that in other areas - e.g. chording, fingerpicking patterns, double stops, vibrato, etc. - the conventional approach, of going slow and increasing speed incrementally, is a no-go? Or do you find it’s only really true of using the pick?

#2

First question I’d ask is if we’ve been clear in articulating why we’re always talking about starting with a certain amount of speed, i.e. what purpose it serves?

#3

Not to steal the thread but I’d like to attempt a reply, since I often miss the point of things. I’m non-intuitive as a person in general.

My understanding was not that we’re to just always play like slop, but that we need to make sure we could find a movement with the capability of speed. At a slow to moderate speed, you can get away with murder. Any phrase can be played cleanly, whether the technique is good or not. Gradually speeding that up won’t help. In fact…it’s probably how I got to where I am!!! Inefficient, inconsistent motions that I brute forced and kept at it because I thought “practice makes perfect”.

Finding a movement that can go fast should be easy. It will work, or it won’t. If it doesn’t, ditch it and try another. It if does, then work with it. This will need to be played at a speed below the max so you can make sure hand sync and control is there, but it still needs to be fast enough that it’s the same motion as the max speed.

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#5

Yeah, I think so. I’d sum it up with this line (not sure whose, but someone here on the Forum): "can you walk doing the same thing as running, just slower…? "

[No!]

In other words, the bio-mechanics are different; it’s not simply a matter of doing the exact same motions fast that you at first did slow.

I appreciate the other comments too, but if I could steer this back in the original direction… Are we just talking about this dynamic of fast-not-slow being applicable to picking? Or are there other areas of playing of which it’s also true? (My own guess would be no - but I’m surprised by so many things musically, I’m learning to say to heck with my assumptions;)

#6

I started playing piano about 30min/day using the principal to start at speed and let the sloppiness clean up over time. I’m convinced it’s the way to learn any technical/fine motor process now. I think it’s going well…it’s an experiment anyway.

I will say there is benefit to slowing down to some degree to get hand sync together. The question becomes how much slower? Probably just enough to keep the closed loop pathway happening…so…still quick.

#7

Sorry to go all Socratic on you here! I think the drive-by reader of a broad question like what you posted above needs to be reminded that just because we talk about speed in the context of picking motions, it’s not because it’s a magical learning enhancer any more than a hammer is a magical fix-it tool that you should hit everything with. It’s because it does a very specific thing in that one specific instance when someone doesn’t know how to perform an unfamiliar motion.

So yes, the the whole point of starting fast is because it’s very hard to determine what correct form is when playing slowly. So if you suspect that there is a “chording form” that might be hard to discover when you play slowly then sure try fast chording. To me, that’s basically the same reason we use it for picking, i.e. as a way of discovering efficient motion.

But any other benefit of fast chording, or fast other stuff, would be coincidental, and not really related to why we do it for learning a new picking motion.

#8

Be as Socratic as you like, @Troy; we’re all sitting here at your feet, if you haven’t noticed;) But yeah, I take your point. And truthfully, I do have my own opinion about whether initially forcing some speed is helpful for other areas of technique: so far, I haven’t encountered any.

I think it’s probably pretty much just a pickslant thing. The nice progress that my teenager is making with chords, for example (he just started playing), I think that’s happening specifically because he’s not practicing the changes fast. When you’re new to chording, speed kills. But again, the older I get, the more often I’m surprised by the answers to questions like this. So I try to keep asking them:)

Another example of ‘slow and steady wins the race’ might be vibrato. I was a little impatient to get the sound I heard on recordings and ended up doing what I came to understand is violin vibrato. Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but I all I could do was a subtle, skinny little waiver of sound - not the wavy, wide, voluptuous vibrato I was really going for. When I started over and worked slowly, it finally started to come.

Okay, so unless someone wows me, I’m gonna assume that slow-and-steady is the way ahead for most things - unless we’re talking pickslanted lead play.

#9

Maybe I can wow you. Here’s another example where I can tell you firsthand that one might try building speed for all eternity and make zero progress. Flamenco strumming:


I can also tell you firsthand that taking the trial and error approach, which I learned here, helped achieve results that years of slow repetitions didn’t. This is also similar in nature to very fast funk strumming with a pick.

I think this approach can make all the difference whenever struggling with non-obvious motions.

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#10

Yes - wow!!

I would never have thought of that; flamenco strum is clearly a chunking thing. Your metronome won’t do you much good there.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks, @nir:)

I’ve gotten into some funk, but maybe stuff not fast enough to necessitate chunking to learn it. What artists/songs do you have in mind?

#11

I’m thinking generally on funk strumming. Maybe for most the motion is obvious, but I do not find it to be that. Explained here for example:

And taken to circus levels here:

Similarly, Al Di Meola has got incredible strumming motion which is technically similar I think:

As I’m typing this, I’m thinking of many more unique, and non trivial motions that cross many genres, and could benefit from this approach.
Right hand guitar technique is incredibly diverse and challenging, and definitely not limited to single string picking.

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#12

Yes, all great examples. These are all the same application we usually talk about, i.e. acquiring a new physical skill by attempting to figuring out the motions at a speed which is natural for that activity. I assume the original post here was asking about some other application of “speed” not related to learning new motions. If it wasn’t, then yes, of course there will be lots of other physical skills you can learn by trying to get the hang of it at a normal speed to begin with.

#13

Right, these are good examples, especially when you put them under the microscope. What I mean is that the loose wrist - both Govan and Di Meola described it that way - is not going to feel the same at slow or moderate speeds as it will when you’re machine-gunning those 32nds.

I’m only speculating since I can’t pull that stuff off. But I suspect that this is in fact another area where slow-then-build-speed isn’t going to cut it. Thanks for those great examples, @nir:)

#14

Like body building in a way :slight_smile:

#15

Just reviving the thread, i’m confused where to apply each aproach, for instance the “start fast” really helped me to improve my usx picking motion, but. I have never achieved that on strumming and i’ve tried a lot of pick grips and motions, i don’t know if its related to the fact that i’m a left handed but i learned as right handed , and to be honest the only thing that worked for me was the usx, again not saying its bad, just saying that maybe that doesnt apply very well for me because i learned as right handed

Anyway i’d really be thankful for life if someone can help me to get a good funk strumming technique something like govan or cory wong also i’m not really sure if you need to be relaxed, when i use only forearm rotation the pick kind of gets stucked in the upstrokes and to get so so consistent i strike harder , also. I guess if you listen to cory and guthrie they have a thick and loud sound when strumming so bottom line i’m lost haha

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#16

I believe Cory Wong, and probably most funk and gospel players, use trailing edge picking. To get a Steve Cropper tone, I switch to trailing edge and use a bit of flesh near the pick to deaden the strings a bit.

#17

Yeah i agree, it looks like it, the thing is that i feel very ackward playing like that, sloppy… and the Upstrokes feel kind of stucked also i’m not quite sure what movements are involved, it looks like forearm rotation and wrist but how much of each? And does the wrist is totally or partially flexed etc also i’m wondering if there are also micro movements from the elbow and shoulder, when i involve that it feels a little bit better but not so much. So , in your opinion in this kind of strumming does apply the start fast philosophy or i’ts something that works better starting slow and increase the tempo gradually?

By the way i don’t have that problem playing fast strumming on the 4th-6th strings. I can play 120-130 16ths without trouble but i use elbow and wrist, actually all my technique issues are in the 1-3rd strings , from crosspicking to strumming i can’t play faster. Its weird . any way it would help me a lot if You could describe what do you feel when strumming and whats movements are involved, a video in slow mo with straight 16ths would be awesome but i dont want to abuse anyway thanks for the feedback

#18

Hey David! I do remember you recent critiques.

Fast / Funk strumming is another situation where your only option is to just try and go fast immediately. You will not progress much by spendind hours playing 16th notes strums at 120bpm or so.

If you recall the video that I posted in your critique, you just gotta pick a target tempo (say 150-160 bpm 16th notes), and do various attempts until you find a strumming motion that can keep up for at least a bar or 2. Then you take it from there.

By the way, even though I am mentioning bpms, it’s probably best to start without a metronome and just aim for a strumming speed that currently feels “too fast”. This way, you can allow yourself to be a little irregular with the tempo, which is totally OK in the exploratory phase. Afterwards, when your basic motion is established, you can try to make it more “metronomic” if that makes sense.

#19

I think this is good advice for a lot of aspects of guitar - make sure it can work fast, but then also spend some time below max speed to make sure the coordination and “tightness” is there. I’ve rethought a lot of my fretting hand approach in the last year, for example, and while there it’s maybe a little easier to logic out what ahould and should not be efficient based on an understanding of the biomechanics of the hand, I’ve definitely made progress by taking theoretically more efficient approaches and slowing them down a bit to “even out” my fretting hand rhythmically. Ironically, doing things I like to do legato as picked drills is really helpful here, which is funny because ten years ago i was playing this stuff legato because I couldn’t pick it. :laughing:

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#20

I’m still hoping for the Cory Wong feature. He has an incredibly relaxed form and beautiful attack. Like watching Tiger Woods swing a club.

The way I get fast rotational strumming is with the flexed form, like Joscho Stephan. I learned by studying his interview footage here. I remember, i got the basic movement down right away, but learning to release excess muscle tension happened over months. And it’s something i only work on occasionally.

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#21

hey tommo thanks! for replying , well the thing is that i can`t even strum at 120bpm on bottom strings may be one bar , at 150 definitely none , and mmm i don’t know what it is , i understand all your advice and the start fast idea but i just can’t find any variable that i can play one or 2 bars , may be is because i’m leftie playing as righthanded and i just don’t have the same natural cordination , cause it happens in almost every picking technique except for usx , really is the only thing i can play decenttly and not completely , my usx speed is around 130bpm , although i haven’t study more to increase it , but i know it works because i can skip 2 or 5 days without playing and when i return is there , opossite to strumming or cross picking. a curious thing is that i can perform all the known movements outside the guitar or in air ,so it’s not an injury , may be it could be the guitar position . i’m still looking but i’m very confused