Why does my thumb appear to be doing "the worm"?!

Technique Critique
#1

(first post) Hello there, I’ve played off and on for awhile and Troy’s videos have been great tools/motivation for me recently! While I’ve watched some of his content I definitely don’t have all the lingo sorted out yet, so apologies if this is a dumb question!

This is not a movement I INTEND to do, but watching myself in video it becomes quite apparent: my thumb and first finger seem to extend / retract often and dramatically. I tried to rotate while playing for this video sample so you can get a view from the side and front:

I’m curious if this motion may be making me “spin my tires” and prevent higher speeds. When I searched for the topic I found some discussion, but didn’t see videos demonstrating the motion to this extent. Thanks for any thoughts you may have! (and if it helps, my YouTube profile should have other videos of my playing if that’s helpful) Thanks!

1 Like
#2

I do a lot of thumb and finger flexion too and used to worry about it (originally I think I was using it as an inefficient way to get over the strings) but now I can play at decent speeds it doesn’t bother me. It bothers me even less when I see videos of people like Kiko Louriero and Nuno Bettencourt doing it. I do wonder how it fits in with the various CTC motions because there hasn’t been that much talk about it

1 Like
#3

What happens when you floor it doing a tremolo on one note? Does the wiggle as much or less?

#4

@PickingApprentice Staying on one note certainly minimizes it (if not totally eliminates it). As speed goes up I become much more of an elbow player (something I’d like to work on - not being dependent on USX at high speed, but I thought that was likely a separate issue). Here were some thoughts just now with a few different tests, playing 16th notes at 190bpm:

  1. don’t notice any “wiggle” picking four-note groups (can hold this while string-skipping randomly for ~45 sec before feeling fatigued in right arm), whole wrist looks “locked” along with finger
  2. don’t notice any “wiggle” doing the “pop tarts” lick - that’s about my speed limit for cleanly playing this consistently
  3. see subtle “wiggle” doing the Gilbert lick (1 note on one string and 5 notes on the other) - not able to play this cleanly consistently. Also notice doing a “1 note on one string and 3 notes on the other” - like the video seems to result in a bigger “wiggle” … interesting considering it’s the same motion as the Gilbert lick but it looks more pronounced - and I play that even sloppier - assuming that’s due to the extra string changes.
#5

The thumb thing is good, I too thought it was inefficient at some point. There was a phase where I tried to eliminate it, doing that changed my hand posture and string attack, but I soon realized the thumb thing is a blessing for string tracking etc, also Cesario Fhilo uses it as a primary device. If it’s happening naturally, after you try to eliminate it, using both methods where appropriate ( this will take a bit of doing to figure it out) is an advantage.

1 Like
#6

As others have said, I wouldn’t be concerned with it, just by the way it looks, but judge things by the results you get. If it feels smooth and doesn’t have an obvious cliff-edge limit at moderate to fast speeds, then all is well.
Edit:

Only way to know is to go faster - it will either work, fail or transition into a slightly different form/mechanic.

The wiggle may be more present at low to moderately quick speeds, because you have the time and space to do so. At higher speeds you may be doing the same motion generally, but the pickstrokes may be smaller and not yield as much wiggle, or just plain harder to see/notice

2 Likes
#7

Whenever I see any kind of systematic thumb movement it’s usually in combination with forearm rotation USX. It clearly works for many insanely fast players so I wouldn’t bother trying to get rid of it for no clear reason. If it works, it works and it’s the only thing that matters.

2 Likes
#8

As @Twangsta said, Cesario Filho is great at this technique:

And @Troy mentions in the Volcano Seminar that Yngwie uses it as a string changing mechanic but then uses more forearm rotation on single string lines.

I’ve recently started supinating my forearm more and I find using the thumb actually kinda helps get forearm rotation going as well and it feels really comfortable to pick this way :smiley:

1 Like
#9

Thanks for the posts, everyone! It’s also discussed in Troy’s video with Joe Stump regarding economy picking (around 2:10, but to be honest I don’t detect it as much - maybe since those exercises seem to keep DWPS (side question … is that lingo now replaced by “USX”?)

Wow Shima and Filho are both interesting examples; seems like they’re using it even when staying on the same strings. For me it seems present ONLY when changing strings - looks like something fun to try to experiment with! And as speed goes up and I start going to elbow, my hunch is that the tension I feel is excessive compared to the common advice of “you’ve got to be relaxed!”

FWIW, the two riffs I am working toward with 1&3 nps groups are 150/155 bpm


(0:44 in case this doesn’t work - by Archspire) and

(2:08 in case this doesn’t work - by Spawn of Possession)
For both of these I can really keep up cleanly only to about 85%
#10

Just chiming in: I do thumb movements as well, but it’s mostly flexed to more flexion, never extension like @_RH first post. I’ve posted a few things about it in the past as well.

#11

“..but I soon realized the thumb thing is a blessing for string tracking..”
Yes! I discovered the power of thumb for string tracking magically a couple of days ago.
Now the single sweep in the 5 notes of eric johnson is more on tempo and sounds better!

2 Likes
#12

That’s awesome, levelling up.
Here’s an example of a recent clip of mine, sorry about reposting, it’s subtle but you can see the flex on the thumb for tracking.

1 Like
#13

How is one supposed to practice this? Like when are you supposed to make the thumb motions? Lol

1 Like
#14

@carranoj25 from my experience, “practicing” it was more about not thinking about it at all. I believe that I naturally do it, so when I used to force myself to not move my fingers because I “had to pick from my wrist” it felt very constrained. After I noticed how much thumb movement I had when I was playing well, I just kind of let it do its thing without thinking too much about it.

That being said, I think it’s more active doing slower lines, maybe as much movement as my wrist. As I speed up, the thumb movements become DBX assistance movements, not the primary movement.

1 Like
#15

Interesting, yeah it’s not something I do naturally. Always saw Yngwie and an old teacher do it so I always wanted to try it. I will experiment with it for fun. Just doing the movement without a guitar pick being held, it seems as if it’s half thumb movement and the other half is the index finger tip pulling/pushing the thumb pad. Do you find the same?

1 Like
#16

@carranoj25 definitely, I described it to a friend as a sawing motion.

1 Like
#17

Sawing is a good way to out it.

1 Like
#18

Michael Angel Batio uses his finger and thumb a lot for his more moderate speed playing. I say moderate, but he is still actually playing pretty damn fast. When he goes into full on shred mode though, he doesn’t seem to use it, finger and thumb sort of lock into place and the motions are coming from elsewhere (hard to say where exactly due to his unusual hand position)

#19

I use thumb motion for a few specific techniques. I tried eliminating it and was successful at it but it slowed me down. Then I saw videos of virtuosic players doing the same thing. Let “myself go” and found when I reintroduced the motion I skyrocketed my speed.

It mainly comes out in my sweep changes though not alternate picking. But if it’s comfortable I wouldn’t worry about anything. Comfy is always good. If it feels smooth and on time what’s the worry? My only concern with a technique is if it hurts physically or feels way too hard (secret: nothing feels hard when it’s baked in with proper technique and the skill is up to par) if it feels hard, I’m either not at that level technically OR I’m doing something wrong.

CtC was great for allowing that realization to sink in. If I can alternate pick 16th notes on one string at 300bpm there shouldn’t be tension EVER at 200bpm. It should feel comfy.

My playing now I aim for “sweat pants on a Sunday” vibe. I used to play like I was bracing for impact in a car accident. Sounded like it a lot too :wink:

2 Likes
#20

16ths at 300bpm? Damn, that’s impressive. Not to derail this thread, but how did you develop such speed, if you don’t mind me asking?

1 Like