357 mag - picking motion experiments

Technique Critique
#21

I agree, this looks so much different than the other stuff you’ve shown us. I’m clocking you in the 160’s now! And your stamina is good too. Since you’ve made some drastic changes, you’re seeing drastic results. This is exactly how this process is supposed to work :slight_smile: I’m excited for you!

You can probably make smaller tweaks now. Experiment with grip (like how firmly you hold the pick), how much edge picking you’re using, and maybe even pick depth. There still seems to be a slight snag and I can’t tell from the footage what type of slant your using. We know now that slant isn’t the all-important thing, but certain joint movements pair better with a certain slants. Everything you’re showing us that’s fast looks like DSX to me and that’s going to be a more neutral slant (i.e. Andy Wood) or a little bit of an upward slant. It should feel like a hot knife cutting through butter as you slice through that string in both directions. If not, small adjustments like this can help you get there. EDIT: I mention that because if you’re still trying to use a downward slant (not saying you are, just in case you are) that could contribute to what Troy calls the ‘garage spikes’ problem, where the trajectory is fighting with the pick’s orientation.

#22

First of all, this sounds way better than your videos with the small finger movement, hopefully you hear the improvement as well.

I would say you’re still trying to make small movements and not allowing the string to actually ring out before hitting it again.

#23

Well guys I still have to say that when I’ve practiced the first 4 or 6 notes of a run using mainly my thumb and forefinger for pick movement, I’ve experienced success. How does what I’m doing in these two videos translate to playing a run? Do I hold my hand the same with my fingers not touching the body of the guitar?

That’s what I want to learn is how to play some runs and get some speed going.

#24

I mean you aren’t going to get immediate results. You just have to train sync’ing both your hands using the movement which will take some time. That you may want to train a little slower. Pick the run you want to learn and practice it using you new hand motion at a speed you can sync both hands with, don’t be frustrated that it won’t likely be as fast as your one string top speed. Once you find a tempo you can play it clean with no slop, keep on punching it up, Your picking hand in only 33.3% of this equation. Your left hand and the synchronization of the two are the other 66.6% You can also incorporate some slight finger movement in there too. It just shouldn’t be the primary one which is obvious by your recent couple of videos.

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#25

Quick admin note: I combined the three recent posts from @357mag into a single thread and changed the title, hopefully this makes the whole discussion easier to follow (especially for other forummers who may learn something from here)

#26

I wonder if we should back up and make sure we understand your goals. What runs do you want to play and how fast do they need to be? Also, how are you measuring the ‘success’ you reported with the motion that everyone’s told you to abandon?

The normal flow of progress on CtC is:

  • Find a motion that can go fast. Throw out all the ones that can’t go fast and concentrate on what you are naturally fastest at. The tremolo is the litmus test here

  • Use that same motion while incorporating your fretting hand. At first this will be on one string, and it might even involve a ‘tremolo melody’. Meaning, you’ll pick each note several times before changing to a new note. That is coordination dependent and will vary from player to player. Either way, Make sure the picking motion is still the same.

  • You need to make sure you’re fretting hand is capable of playing as fast as your picking hand. If it isn’t, go read some of Tom Gilroy’s posts :slight_smile: In particular, this one Efficient Digital Cycles

  • Once you’re playing fast on one string, with good hand sync and doing one picked note per fretting note, you should start changing strings. Make sure the picking motion is still the same. You need to be aware of the motion’s escape too. So far you’ve been fastest with DSX so you’ll need to play things that switch strings after downstrokes.

  • The final step involves melting everyone’s face :metal: :metal: :metal: :fire: :fire: :fire:

And just like @Fossegrim says, you can’t expect this happen in a short time period. Already, you’ve gone from showing us a motion that seems doomed to being slow, to one that’s moving at 16th notes ~160 bpm. And that’s the part that actually is supposed to happen quite quickly, so well done there. Troy’s said many times that most people, if they don’t have some sort of disability or injury, have the potential to move their pick well above even 16ths @ 200 bpm. After trying all the available motions and the table tapping tests, you should be able to translate that motion to guitar almost immediately. Within minutes for some people, but certainly within a few days time. Then the other stuff like hand sync and string changing…that’s going to take a while. But you have to find that fast motion! You can’t make an inefficient motion go fast. Just like you can’t gradually walk faster and expect to use that same motion for sprinting. At some point during the speed increase, the mechanics all change. That’s why starting fast is important. If a motion can go fast, it can’t be inefficient. You’re close to finding that fast motion, you just to refine it some!

#27

I just want some more speed. Not Malmsteen type speed it does not have to go that fast. Right now I’m working on a run that uses alternate picking. The last note on the low E string is a downstroke so when I begin the notes on the A string it starts with an upstroke. Then when those notes are done on the A string the notes on the D string begin with a downstroke again. Alternate picking. But it does alternate between starting on a string with a downstroke and the next string starting with an upstroke.

That will work won’t it?

What sense would it make to have a system of picking that you can only change strings after an upstroke or a downstroke? I need to be able to start the next string on either a downstroke or an upstroke.

#28

I think I see where you’re coming from. It’s a common misconception that all the players we love can just pick anything they want. Sure, some can, but most have a system that’s conducive to the phrases they play. Yngwie and Eric Johnson only change strings after upstrokes. If that’s not possible given the number of notes on the string, they add a slur. They are USX players and the joint motion they use requires this. John McLaughlin is the polar opposite. He only changes strings after a down stroke. His joint motion and setup require this. Though since he’s wrist based he probably could do more things than we see in his playing. For example, Andy Wood’s motion looks really similar to John’s and he’s able to do mixed escape. John’s vocabulary seems consistent though and he chooses stuff that changes after a down stroke. Yes, even when improvising and flying from the seat of his pants! Troy did an amazing post on this:

What you’re describing you’d like to do is only possible if you

  • have a wrist based motion, because wrist can do anything
  • Use some hammer ons, pull offs or slides
    • Or use swiping
  • Keep elbow as your main mechanic but introduce a secondary motion (like wrist or fingers) to allow the pick to escape after upstrokes.

We’ve seen so many people on here that think they need a motion that can do anything, so they start the frustrating journey of trying to get a wrist motion going and they lack the coordination that requires. Instead, they may find they have a naturally fast elbow or forearm rotation. Rather than capitalize on what they inherently excel at, they strive for what’s challenging to them.

Now, if you don’t want to play all that fast, none of this matters. String hopping ‘works’ at slow speeds. It still gets tiring and limits your duration. Maybe that’s no big deal if you only want to play runs that are short and < 16ths @ 135bpm.

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#29

Okay I filmed myself playing a run that I found on YouTube quite a while ago. It uses 7 notes per string until you reach the high E string which uses 5 notes on that particular string. I’ve seen Ben Eller’s videos on YouTube and he recommends using an even number of notes per string like 2 or 4 or 6 that way you are changing strings after an upstroke.

What should I do in this particular run I’m playing? Really concentrate on wrist movement?

Here is the run:

#30

Hi @357mag . It’s a cool riff, it reminds me of Rusty Cooley who uses a lot of 7’s. But it might be a distraction.

Is your goal to play that run, or to get faster in general? Since that run is much more complicated you’d need a versatile wrist movement or helper motion (or the other suggestions, don’t pick every single note). That’s all beyond the initial task of finding a fast motion though. Once you get that down, there’s a lot you can add to it. If you haven’t felt a fast motion yet, you’ll have nothing to reference that allows you to know if you’re on the right track or not. I’d say probably narrow your focus otherwise you’ve got a moving target.

#31

My goal is to get faster in general. The reason I chose this run is because I really like the sound of it with the scale it uses. Ben Eller shows a run that uses an even number of notes on each string. I’ve worked with this run a little so far.

Do you think I should concentrate more on this one? Here is the YouTube link:

He starts showing the lick at about 5:45 into the video.

#32

That’s a great video, but it only works with motions that escape the string after an upstroke. The fastest motions you’ve shown us are the opposite of that, so you’d need to play a pattern like Ben’s starting on an upstroke.

#33

I thought I was using downward pickslanting all this time. My pick is pointed down towards the floor. As far as I can tell with an upwards escape motion. So I don’t understand why you say that.

And I don’t understand why in the previous posts people are recommending using hammer-ons and pull offs to play that run that I posted of myself. What do the hammer-ons and pull offs do? Why do you need them for?

I want to pick every note preferably.

#34

This is a pretty typical USX phrase, doesn’t hurt to try it out.

In general, I think it’s easier to build up speed with small fragments that you can loop, not a very long phrase. Here’s a video I made with some small lines you can loop.

Edit: changed DSX to USX

#35

This is a USX phrase. It changes strings after upstrokes, not downstrokes.

#36

You’re right, he does 6 then repeats. I autopiloted to 3, 6 repeat (which is DSX).

#37

I would maybe go back an read a little more about the steps @joebegly is recommending and NOT start with a multi string lick. If you want a full comprehensive lick, and not just a fragment to start, I would do a simple single string diatonic 16th note sequenced lick. It can sound pretty neo classical, and might get you moving in the right direction.

#38

Actually I have learned some single-string diatonic sequences that sound very Malmsteen like. I have worked hard on them trying to get the speed up and it’s been tough going. I’m okay with trying some two string looping ideas like that guy posted in the video.

#39

After watching his looping video it seems to me that he is playing A-B-C-D-E-F across the B and E strings and doing it repeatedly. Because he is only playing 3 notes on the B string it’s down-up-down. So it would be downward escape motion. Changing strings after downstrokes.

#40

I’m not sure which of your videos you’re referring to, you’ve done a lot of them. I’m only interested in the one where your elbow was driving it. It was the second video in this post here:

That was the fastest thing you showed us, it had potential with some tweaks. The elbow, on its own, will only change strings after a down stroke. It doesn’t matter which way you slant your pick. I was mistaken and went down that path, don’t waste your time like I did. If you get bored, read through this TL DR thread:

I was trying to go fast using my elbow and I misunderstood something fundamental about a ‘pickslanting’: if the joint you’re using only allows for a one-way escape (and the elbow is THAT joint), you can’t change that by altering your pick slant. So the important thing is the path the joint motion makes. The slant is secondary to that. If you try to shoehorn in a slant that doesn’t make sense, you’ll make it even worse.

I really think the steps I outlined in the other post will get you to where you’d like to be. They aren’t my steps! lol! I’m just parroting what I’ve read Troy tell many many people on here. Get a fast motion, play stuff with it on one string with good hand sync, figure out if it changes strings on upstrokes or downstrokes and play phrases that conform to it. All the other things like wanting to be able to play phrases that change after an up or down stroke or phrases that are all 7’s or all 5’s or even numbers…that’s all a distraction. You need to form a solid core and work outward from there.

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