9-3 picking motion feels uncontrollable

Technique Critique
#1

Greetings Everyone!

I’ve been really trying to nail down my pick slanting recently, and I’ve run into a problem. The only clockface motion that feels natural to me is an 8-2 motion. I know this is not necessarily a problem, but I find that in order to do downward pick slanting, I need to heavily supinate my forearm and this doesn’t feel great. I would like to be able to rest the heel of my palm flat on the bridge and still be able to DPS, but my 9-3 deviation feels incredible wobbly and uncontrollable.

I remember Troy saying at some point that if you can’t get the back and forth motion up to around 150 bpm pretty soon then there is probably a bigger problem, but I’m not sure what my problem is since I followed the checklist as best I could. It doesn’t feel like something that will get better with practice and a metronome.

Here is a short video of me doing my picking motions. If anyone would like a different angle then just let me know.

Thanks for taking the time to read this! Any advice would be greatly appreciated, or links to forum posts which discuss this topic specifically as I may have missed it.

Jeff

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String Hopping (Bouncing) and Rest Strokes
#2

May sound strange but have you tried to use rotation?
Point is - there’s no ‘pure’ motions. It’s always some combination of different stuff. For me roation motion helped to develop more or less reliable USX (DWPS) though now it’s not necessary looks like rotation.
And, from my experience I would suggest to use some supination and add some flexion (lift wrist joint above strings a bit)

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#3

Thanks for the reply! I will attempt these tips.

In the motion checklist video, it says that the pick should be traveling in a straight line in and out of the strings. Wondering how that is possible with rotation, wouldn’t that create slight swooping motion? He described EJ’s motion as 9-3 which is I guess what i’m most trying to emulate, which is why i was trying to go for the back and forth motion.

#4

I’m not sure why it did help me. May be even with rotation I tried to help myself using wrist motion which helped me to get correct feeling after all. Now I use roation seldom but it definitely helped me.

#5

Here is a better angle.

#6

Hey @JeffrStarkey, welcome to the Forum :slight_smile:

Looking at the last video what I can tell straight away is that the motion at 0:10 is smooth and efficient, while the one at 0:20ish looks to me like string hopping. One can never be 100% sure but the fact that you mention tension and the speed bump around 100bpm are pretty strong indicators.

One observation that may/may not be useful is that your attempted upstroke escape path is very tilted. Notice that when @Troy does this the escape is much shallower / flatter:

One practical suggestion for the future is to leave all commentary out of the video and put it in here in text form. You can limit the filming to short playing examples that address one issue/motion per video, like:

motion 1 description - video 1
motion 2 description - video 2 etc.

This makes it easier for conversations to be searchable by other forum users, and it also allows for quicker analysis of the videos because it’s easy to find the relevant playing.

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#7

In the second part of our video you start to do U-shape movement which leads to that ‘bouncing’. My guess is that you’re DSX picker naturally. And now you fight against your own playing habits. In that case it’s just a matter of time. And relaxation. And experimantations.
Try to focus on reststrokes while doing larger motions with your wrist relaxed as possible.

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#8

Good point! You can even try something super different like a Steve Morse grip, just to give yourself more variety and more chances to feel the instrument in a different way. If it sounds scary, just be aware it does not have to be a permanent change!

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#9

I second this. The forearm gypsy style was how I learned USX and before that I only did DSX. It’s a very distinct and different feel so it might be easier to break out of DSX habits. Once you know how that feels you can limit the amount of flexion gradually and get to a form that makes palm contact which will probably be close to what you want.

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#10

I might be having a similar issue. I feel what you said in the videos, including the DSX thing. I seem to have problems getting a solid feel for the upstrokes, specifically. They either flop around randomly, or they’re straight but my arm tenses up. Have you noticed anything like this?

+1 to this. I switched from wrist to forearm rotation for a while, and then went back to wrist, and doing that seemed to give some more perspective on identifying/isolating the feel of the wrist component. Switching things up temporarily is probably a good idea.

#11

Thank you for the insight Tommo! Yeah I can see in my video that my upstrokes are pulling up far from the strings. and that probably starts the whole bouncing process. I just can’t seem to get rid of it while maintaining an upstroke escape path.

Maddening that an 8-2 motion can feel so natural and smooth but altering it by a couple degrees can create all this chaos! Haha

And I will keep all discussion to text, thanks for the pointer. :+1:

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#12

I have the exact same thing! Things start bouncing around with this trajectory. I guess some motion paths just come more natural than others.

I will give rotation a try.

#13

To add insult to injury I can do it with my left hand…maybe I’ll switch it up after 15 years

#14

How tense does your forearm get? It looks like you’re tensing up there. I could be wrong but if that’s the case, you’ve got work on loosening it a bit.

#16

It does get very tense. I’m probably string hopping or bouncing. Trying to use rest strokes to remedy it but so far no progress past 120 bpm

#17

I’m pretty sure that’s a major blocker in your progress. Rest strokes don’t make sense past a certain speed, in my opinion. You’re going way past where you need to when playing at speeds that require more economy of motion. Rest strokes are ok at slower speeds. Work on being mindful of what triggers that tension. Recognizing when it happens can go a long way in helping you resolve the issue

#18

Looks like you have to adjust the slant of your pick. It’s a little hard to see the pick interacting with the string in the video but it looks (and sounds) like the pick is digging under the string on the upstroke and essentially getting trapped.

#19

Greetings!

Sorry to add another thread to the string hopping pile, but I have a few questions on how to deal with it.

I have a deeply ingrained string hopping problem that developed over about 15 years and I’m working really hard to remedy that now.

Pretty much every thread regarding string hopping has had some similar advice, which includes rest strokes. So I just want to ask anyone whose conquered string hopping in this way a few questions…

  • Did you use rest strokes at a slow speed and bump it up a few bpm at a time? (I’m a bit confused about this since I’ve watched the video on how you shouldn’t try to work up to speed, regarding basic picking hand motions)

  • Are you aware of any addition methods, or general wisdom on how to overcome something like this? Perhaps this is covered in some CtC content that I have missed or not purchased yet.

Thanks Everybody!

#20

Currently stuck around 115-120 bpm before things get bouncy, unsure if practicing rest strokes at that speed is actually useful.

I’ve been doing it for about an hour a day and have yet to see any tangible improvement.

#21

Hi @JeffrStarkey, I moved your posts here as I think your comments are more easily addressed in the context of the above videos. Let me know if this is ok :slight_smile:

Let’s also start with a positive note: you already have an efficient DSX picking motion, so I’d suggest to allocate a decent amount of your practice time to develop that (finding a variety of DSX musical phrases and so on).

Moving on to USX:

The short answer is “no”: if the motion is not right to begin with, it will not get better by repetition. And based on what we have seen here on the Forum, trying small variations around something that does not work is usually not helpful either.

My suggestion would be to try a combination of pick grip, hand/arm position and motion mechanics that is sufficiently different from what you are doing now. Then, try straight away a simple USX lick at a decent speed (say 140-150pm 16th notes). Even something like this on two strings (starting on a downstroke):

---------7-7-7-7-
-5-5-5-5---------

For example, I suggested the Steve Morse setup precisely because it’s so different from what you are currently doing. This may help to get away from your old habits, because the points of contact with the instrument etc. will be so different. If you find a good USX motion there, then you’ll start learning the feeling of a good USX motion. Then you can go to your old pick grip and hand position, and see if you can recreate that feeling.

Ask me how I know :slight_smile: My most significant recent improvements did not come from repetition (and boy did I try to do repetition!), but from introducing a significant change somewhere in my technique. As a rule of thumb, something that feels uncomfortable now is likely to remain uncomfortable tomorrow. You gotta find the comfortable way :slight_smile:

Sorry for the long post :sweat_smile:

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